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 Wii U & the persnickety developers.

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PostSubject: Wii U & the persnickety developers.   Wii U & the persnickety developers. EmptyFri 31 May 2013 - 5:59

Nintendo continues its troubles with 3rd party developers.
Since the release of the Wii U, we have seen the same old problems arise with any hope of getting proper games from 3rd party developers. It isn’t even just getting ports, which can clearly run on the Wii U, with the release of Snipers Elite V2, we see the problem of not even putting the whole game on it, removing parts that were on other consoles.

3rd party games don’t sell on Nintendo consoles.
How often have we seen this kind of headline? It is far too often and in most cases, it isn’t a problem with Nintendo or the users of their products, it is mostly self-inflicted. Sometimes it just isn’t a particularly good game, sometimes it is a substandard port, sometimes it is just too niche and sometimes it isn’t marketed properly or at all. Then when it doesn’t sell, for all the obvious reasons and instead of taking a closer look at themselves, they shift blame to an easy target. Anyone remember how Soul Calibur on the Gamecube sold better than its competitors? It may have had something to do with Link being in the game, but still, it shows given a good game, it will sell.

Supercilious developers.
If there is one behavioural trait in the gaming world I hate, it is developer elitism. There are some developers, regardless of how well their game may sell on a Nintendo console, will not entertain the idea as they believe it would be brand damaging or beneath them to do so.

Convenient excuses for being schlemiels.
Now we are hearing that certain game engines won’t run on the Wii U, when it is clearly a ruse to avoid being responsible for the decisions made and attempt to place the blame on Nintendo. The Sony and Microsoft buyers fall for the line completely, you only have to drop in on the comment sections of any site to see it.

How Nintendo can beat them at their own game.
I have been thinking about this issue a lot, probably too much. However I do have some suggestions on how Nintendo can dismantle the roadblocks, made up of excuses, not reasons, placed before them. They are suggestions rather than a suggestion, as what we are dealing with is not simple, as when you remove an excuse from the developers, they simply move to another, then another, until, eventually you arrive at the real truth.

Game Engine won’t work? Let me fix that for you.
When a developer says an engine won’t run on the Wii U, Nintendo should consider offering to modify the game engines directly for themselves. The engines and the modifications would remain the property of the creator, but they now have no excuse, especially if cost was at the heart of it. Nintendo benefits as now any developer, who wants to, can use the engine.

A port isn’t financially viable? Let us port it for you.
Every new game that comes out is a viable opportunity to have on the Wii U. The cost of porting it can be an issue, especially if you want to include control options that the Wii U offers. Of course, they could just do a straight port and not use the tablet at all, but that would be too easy. If Nintendo want a game on their console, they are not short of cash or staff to complete the necessary work. Again, at no, or negotiated cost to the developer, Nintendo would offer to take the game and complete the port themselves. The negotiated cost could be as simple as; Nintendo covers the cost unless the game returns a profit through sales returns. This way the developer has the commercial risk removed, but will still pay if it is successful.

It isn’t worth the distribution risks? Let us publish it for you.
This is simple, as Nintendo have already been doing this, long before the Wii U. Monster Hunter is a classic example. If a developer can’t access a publisher, willing to take it to the market, then Nintendo should do it, assuming it is a viable option. If EA isn’t willing to publish a game, then why not offer to do it for them? In Australia, publisher regularly decide not to sell a game in our market, such The Walking Dead, so Nintendo need to step in and fill the gap.

I am a developer and can’t get a backer. Let us back you.
This is also simple, as Nintendo did exactly this with Bayonetta and how much did that upset the fanboys. Nintendo need to look around for other games that could make a nice exclusive to their console. What about Brutal Legend 2 or Alice 3? They don’t have backers I am aware of. There must be many projects that Nintendo could get into at the entry level.

You’re a good developer. Create a game with our franchise.
Yet another simple one, as Nintendo has a history with this as well. If Nintendo can’t or won’t so another F-Zero, go talk to Sega again. Look to western developers who have a good development record, or make it clear that it is willing to listen to project ideas, and then act on the good ones. Nintendo need to accept they haven’t got enough resources to produce every game we want, but there are others who can assist.

Nintendo need to cover as many franchises as possible.
Nintendo desperately need to create completely new IP, with the intent of creating great games, but just as importantly, being able to compete with major franchises it would not normally see. To do this, they need to contract developers, whilst still owning the IP. I personally think Nintendo need to have games that can compete in genres that it isn’t an expert in. The following isn’t a complete list, but it is to me just about covering the obvious ones:

Sports Car Sim - Aimed directly at Gran Turismo and Forza.
Survival Horror - It has Project Zero, expand on it, plus something akin to Resident Evil.
First Person Shooter - Back a new Battlefield or Call of Duty style franchise.
Action - Aimed directly at the Grand Theft Auto and Saint’s Row market.
Sport - EA has a stranglehold on the market, so Nintendo needs to create a series of serious, sim-like sport franchises, which just don’t have all of the licences.
Adventure - Aimed at the Assassin’s Creed and Uncharted market, more or less, an adult Zelda type game (but not Zelda).

Now, I am not saying Nintendo need to make the games themselves, as what they are brilliant at what they make now and should continue with that, but who knows if they couldn’t create a whole world of Rare type developers, working alongside them.

That is my 2 cents worth of thoughts on the matter. Is anyone else been thinking about it? Any other, perhaps better ideas?
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PostSubject: Re: Wii U & the persnickety developers.   Wii U & the persnickety developers. EmptyFri 31 May 2013 - 9:38

Agree with alot of that, the problem with 3rd party is people like me whom buy Nintendo consoles for Nintendo games with a few expectations . It's nice to see watch dogs coming to wiiu but i won't buying it on it ill be buying it on my ps3 (or 4).
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PostSubject: Re: Wii U & the persnickety developers.   Wii U & the persnickety developers. EmptyFri 31 May 2013 - 10:19

Were I a key figure at Nintendo, I wouldn't bother pissing about with porting other developers' old PS3 games over to Wii U for them. Why bother? Nintendo are supporting Wii U, 3DS and two versions of eShop at the very least. Put your company's development resources into those, not some bollocks like Super Meat Boy. That brings me to another point you've made that I agree with: 'developer elitism'. I remember the makers of Super Meat Boy saying that they'd consider bringing their star (only) franchise to Wii U if Nintendo could stick Meat Boy in the next Smash Bros. Ha. F**k off.

There are too many convenient excuses doing the rounds at the minute, and Nintendo have been awfully quiet on their future plans for Wii U. Maybe that's their own downfall? Still, I'm hoping for some firm release dates for 3D Mario/Mario Kart U/Wind Waker HD/Smash Bros, a media blitz, masses of advertising and a Premium model price drop. Hopefully, Wii U sales will pick up on the back of these, and the proposition of developing for it will become all the more attractive.
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PostSubject: Re: Wii U & the persnickety developers.   Wii U & the persnickety developers. EmptyFri 31 May 2013 - 11:34

I agree with Phillips, for the most part. If Nintendo concentrate on making (and selling) some great games of their own, and maybe a few more Bayonetta type deals, then people will buy the console and other publishers will get their act together all on their own.
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PostSubject: Re: Wii U & the persnickety developers.   Wii U & the persnickety developers. EmptyFri 31 May 2013 - 13:33

Phillips wrote:
Were I a key figure at Nintendo, I wouldn't bother pissing about with porting other developers' old PS3 games over to Wii U for them. Why bother? Nintendo are supporting Wii U, 3DS and two versions of eShop at the very least. Put your company's development resources into those, not some bollocks like Super Meat Boy.

I am not talking about old games, they are done and unless we are talking GOTY Editions, all released at the same time, should be ignored. Any new PS3/Xbox 360 game is a completely different matter. Nintendo should be attempting to have all new games, for the PS3 in particular, ported to the Wii U - whjat anout Tales of Xillia? I would much prefer to see these kind of games on the Wii U. All the excuses should be adressed and removed and Nintendo need to go in hard on all of these types of games.
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PostSubject: Re: Wii U & the persnickety developers.   Wii U & the persnickety developers. EmptyFri 31 May 2013 - 14:41

'Sure, we'll put Tomb Raider on PlayStation, XBox and PC, but if you want it on Wii U, you, Nintendo, will have to foot the bill'. Nah. I want all games on Wii U, but it shouldn't have to be that way. Partnered with a price drop and the attraction of the likes of Zelda, Mario Kart, Wii Fit U and another Wii Sports, I think the console will begin to shift in good (albeit not record-breaking) numbers. Should developers and publishers see the console as an attractive proposition in terms of money they could generate by having their game on Wii U, I think they'll find a way to design them for over here too...

...that said, some of the games ported from PS3/360 to Wii were utterly compromised, like Dead Rising. Conclusion: want new games, but only if made with care.
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PostSubject: Re: Wii U & the persnickety developers.   Wii U & the persnickety developers. EmptyFri 31 May 2013 - 17:57

To be honest I think there's just been too much focus on the negative aspects of the 3rd party situation on wii U, sure it can be improved but its just isn't as bad as its being made out to be.
The wii U has already good support with the likes of arkham city, Nba 2k13 & Zombi U, I think Nintendo are going about it in the right manner making partnership deals which are leading to games like bayonetta 2, TW101 & sonic lost world.

Lets not forget about the likes of Raymam legends, arkham origins, watch_dogs & the stuff we don't even know about yet I think that's great going for a systems that's only been out 6 months.
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PostSubject: Re: Wii U & the persnickety developers.   Wii U & the persnickety developers. EmptySat 1 Jun 2013 - 9:31

A lot of what you're saying makes sense, oldschool. My favourite one is 'Nintendo cover more game types', as my fear with some of the others is that the company will bend over backwards to accommodate developers that will just take advantage of them. I also agree with Jaster - it's early in the console's life, the first of the next generation volley (yes, commentators, it is), so there are two other consoles out there with a userbase that far outstrips the Wii U. Once serious money can be made from it, developers will start to back it more.
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PostSubject: Re: Wii U & the persnickety developers.   Wii U & the persnickety developers. EmptySat 1 Jun 2013 - 11:41

I think Nintendo's main problem is also one of its main assets: Nintendo consoles, since the GameCube days at least, are always different. As successful as Wii was, does anyone ever wonder what it'd have been like if the Wii had done everything it already did but had graphical capabilities suitable for easy PS3/360 ports? This question has always bugged me, as the Wii is home to Super Mario Galaxy, which is the prettiest game of last generation in my opinion. With a little more effort and market awareness, Wii could've been huge in the way the DS was for third parties. The keyword here is 'effort'.

Which brings me onto DS. Things started very poorly indeed for DS: shonky ports, a great deal of moaning about the lack of analogue controls; but then it became clear that a simple, accessible idea with traditional digital controls, or more likely, the revolutionary uses of touch controls the DS (for better or worse) could create a long-selling sales phenomenon. You could argue that Nintendo weren't even the ones who did it best last handheld generation: there's plenty of evidence that Ninty began to rest on its laurels as third parties took up the slack. Nintendo then made the wonderful decision to encourage original games by publishing titles such as Dragon Quest IX, Ghost Trick, Inazuma Eleven, the Professor Layton series and late-coming oddities like Solatorobo.

Back to Wii U, now, and I think the only thing currently holding it back is the (expected and inevitable) post-launch drought, and the timing of its release in relation to the (still vague in some areas) details and release dates/prices of the other Big Two. Personally, and especially with the now-confirmed Xbox One details and restrictions/fees imposed by Microsoft, coupled with Wii U's capable and inexpensive hardware, I think there are a lot of things Nintendo and Nintendo fans can be very happy about: Nintendo has entered the next generation with lower costs and far fewer barriers than before. By nature of it being a home console I can't see it doing DS numbers, nor can I see it reaching the mega masses like Wii did, but I think a lot of less financially endowed developers, and particularly indie developers (as we've already seen) will come knocking on Nintendo's door in time. Nintendo has carried its fun-for-all ethos on, and I think a lot of genuine gamers will eventually see this.

People these days simple expect something to either be an instant success or failure, and entertainment seekers in particular can be unbelievably blind and unrealistic about the future of a brand. Wii U is well under a year old after all, and everyone has conveniently forgotten that 3DS had an utterly abysmal first year at retail. And now look at it!

Crikey. Did I really just type all that? Shocked
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PostSubject: Re: Wii U & the persnickety developers.   Wii U & the persnickety developers. EmptySat 1 Jun 2013 - 13:34

Stu_the_great wrote:
Crikey. Did I really just type all that? Shocked

Yes you did. Cool

If Nintendo did EXACTLY the same as Sony and Microsoft, it would fail. The Gamecube was largely the same as the PS2 and Xbox, more powerful than the PS2, with 4 controller ports and slightly less powerful than the Xbox and no hard drive. The only real difference was online, which the PS2 was dragged into, and the discs. It wasn't difficult at all for any developer to port to the Gamecube, yet they shunned it in droves. Worldwide sales of the Gamecube were only marginally less than the Xbox. There is a reason for it in my opinion, and that reason is people want to hate Nintendo.

The reason for that hate is bizarre and difficult to comprehend. I firmly believe if the Wii U were exactly the same hardware as the other two, the same haters would still find reason to hate. Even with that in mind, I think, and it is the reason for the article, that Nintendo need to square off directly at all the complaints and address them directly. They need to remove the reasons for the problems. In many ways they are already doing so, but even things as simple as a unified account instead of individual consoles, are just grist for the mill of haters.

When I talk about taking on some of the tasks developers are not willing to do, it is about addressing those issues, to ensure there is as wide a range of games available as is possible. In business it is about strategic marketing, where profit is not the key, but the peripheral benefits. Those peripheral benefits are appealing to a broader range of gamers. Strategic means that Nintendo would still make a business case decision on what is good for business. It would not automatically green light everything. A good example might be ensuring GTA is available, and that may involve cost, with anticipated return. By assuming the risk, the developer can feel free to make the game available.

I am actually still confidant about the Wii U, even if I don't have one. I agree and have made similar statements, that developers, who cannot risk expensive games, may be more inclined to go with the Wii U. In doing so, we may end up seeing some of the more original games that the DS spawned. The developers can still port it to the other consoles, as it will be in HD no matter what, so they may base the games on the Wii U and scale up. This may potentially cause great difficulty for the PS4 and XB1, as they will continue to support the PS3 and 360, and for at least a couple of years, will look at the mass appeal of those consoles, in concert with the Wii U and see that as a better business proposition. It may retard significantly any market penetration of the new consoles.

Perhaps I need to clarify that I don't believe the Wii U is at risk of failure. I am merely addressing a strategy to bring in the recalcitrants and make as many games available as possible, by removing barriers.
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PostSubject: Re: Wii U & the persnickety developers.   Wii U & the persnickety developers. EmptySat 1 Jun 2013 - 16:24

There are a lot of words here, and I don't perhaps have the time to do the subject justice. Largely because I don't care! Unless Nintendo go under, the absence of your EAs and your Activisions and your Rockstar Norths from the Wii U barely impacts me. Squeenix is perhaps only the "big publisher" I'd want to woo to Nintendo.

Because of this, many of my opinions are going to be the same as Phillips'. Nintendo is a big company, and I don't know how big, but would I want them diverting men and resources to porting over GTAV, or invest those same resources in a new game of their own? Given that I'll never play GTAV, the rather selfish answer should be obvious.

Finally, I agree with Stu's point that it is still early days. Third-party support may never reach PS360 levels, but there's still plenty of time for the console to perk up, especially if the E3/ND schedule is as good as promised: and then suddenly we'll see the third parties being more interested. EA released a bets-hedging statement directly after the X1's atrocious reveal, for example.
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PostSubject: Re: Wii U & the persnickety developers.   Wii U & the persnickety developers. EmptyMon 3 Jun 2013 - 11:27

I agree with the notion that Nintendo should probably be lending a hand trying to get 'big' content (as in the games the masses pay attention to and those that sell hardware or increase confidence around a platform) on Wii U.

Part of the problem seems to be publishers adopted a wait and see approach with Wii U. The launch lineup was fairly strong, but sales since then haven't been so encouraging, leading to them believing it's not worth putting their resources towards the platform (we've seen similar with 3DS -- Square Enix find it more profitable to put out poor ports of their back catalogue on smartphone than remake those games for 3DS). This combined with the general apathy towards the system (even from developers themselves, as mentioned) hasn't led to a good situation.

Another area of concern would be Japan and the lack of Wii U support it's been receiving. You'd think with 3DS being the number one platform there and Wii having done fairly well, that Wii U would receive a lot of support from the region, but so far it's been lackluster to say the least. Apparently this is due to Nintendo getting dev kits out too late (which would explain a lot, especially as the launch lineup mostly featured games from western publishers). With Wii U also floundering in Japan since launch (not even Dragon Quest X could spark new sales), this may have scuppered Nintendo's chances at receiving big support from Japan, the kind of support that would have made it to launch but couldn't.

What is rosy, at least, is the indie support on Wii U. At GDC Nintendo finally showed us how Unity 4 Pro will work on Wii U (Easily, and it's bundled with every dev kits) as well as Nintendo web framework, which supports languages such as HTML5 and CSS. In short, developers can make Wii U games easily or port over their games to Wii U, and as such we've got a fair few indie games on their way to the platform.

Wii Street U was made using Nintendo Web Framework, so perhaps we'll start seeing apps making their way to the platform, too, and I've seen rumblings on Twitter of indie developers wanting to port over their HTML5-based games to the platform.

Sadly, though, indie games don't seem to sell platforms and a lot aren't specific to a single platform. Good for bolstering Wii U's software library, though.

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PostSubject: Re: Wii U & the persnickety developers.   Wii U & the persnickety developers. EmptyTue 4 Jun 2013 - 1:05

For Nintendo, making the system and hoping they will come isn't enough - even when the Wii was a runaway success in the market, it didn't make Third Parties respect the platform much at all - mostly because joe casual would accept pretty much anything for a while before they all moved onto the PS3 and Xbox.

I can't say that I'm surprised that the ONLY third party willing to give Nintendo a real chance is Sega, props to them - even when they were freshly smarting from Dreamcast bombing, they were ready to support Gamecube out the gate with the superior port of SA2. Last Gen they also provided a decent spate of Sonic titles for Wii, so I'm pleased to see Lost World continues that friendly little thing Ninty and Sega have going on.

Platinum are also quite loyal, but I suspect that loyalty will only last till Beyonetta 2 goes gold. Which is fair enough. Capcom are being surprisngly cool as well in the case of Monster Hunter.

It must be annoying for Nintendo that more is expected of them to bring to the table than Sony and Microsoft. But the only way they'll get ahead is if they enter into deals, maybe buy a few third parties and focus on their own output. To be honest I won't miss the likes of EA, let the meatheads get their Xbox One systems and enjoy the media overload ("you can watch espn, check your fantasy team listing AND search for "Tampa Bay Buccaneers" at the same time!!!") and yearly sport rehashes. Everything I heard about the potental EA and Nintendo relationship sounded like a horrible deal all over.

I think Raymangate made Nintendo realize being developer friendly wasn't helping matters, it must of taken them by surprise too as there was nothing to cover that horrible gap post-launch. But I'm pretty sure after that, Nintendo will be more interested in making certain a title truly is exclusive for their system if it's declared to be so in future (even if just for a little while)

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PostSubject: Re: Wii U & the persnickety developers.   Wii U & the persnickety developers. EmptyTue 4 Jun 2013 - 2:54

I wouldn't say sega is the only key third party supporter of wii U, Ubisofts support has been great.
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PostSubject: Re: Wii U & the persnickety developers.   Wii U & the persnickety developers. EmptyTue 4 Jun 2013 - 7:51

(directs angry glare towards Rayman Legends)
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PostSubject: Re: Wii U & the persnickety developers.   Wii U & the persnickety developers. EmptyTue 4 Jun 2013 - 10:19

....but you'll still be buying it, won't you? Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Wii U & the persnickety developers.   Wii U & the persnickety developers. EmptyTue 4 Jun 2013 - 10:33

Nope! BOYCOTTBOYCOTTBOYCOTT. Although if I could find a way to send a cheque for £20 to Ancel saying thanks, without any going to UbiSoft, I probably would.

(Honestly, not too hard a decision. I didn't like Origins that much, as I may have mentioned.)
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PostSubject: Re: Wii U & the persnickety developers.   Wii U & the persnickety developers. EmptyTue 4 Jun 2013 - 10:41

Yeah i think ubi have done or going to with rayman legends, watch dogs and assassin's creed 4 the likes.
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PostSubject: Re: Wii U & the persnickety developers.   Wii U & the persnickety developers. EmptyTue 4 Jun 2013 - 23:45

Balladeer wrote:
Nope! BOYCOTTBOYCOTTBOYCOTT. Although if I could find a way to send a cheque for £20 to Ancel saying thanks, without any going to UbiSoft, I probably would.

(Honestly, not too hard a decision. I didn't like Origins that much, as I may have mentioned.)

You really didn't like Origins? Why? Apart from maybe DKCR it was the best 2d platformer in yonks, but Im glad you aren't avoiding it due to it going multiplatform as that would just be beyond silly.
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PostSubject: Re: Wii U & the persnickety developers.   Wii U & the persnickety developers. EmptyWed 5 Jun 2013 - 6:34

The aesthetic, mostly. Also slightly the way Rayman feels, and the nature of the collectables. I just couldn't get on with it, and I did try. But BOYCOTTBOYCOTTGEOFFREYBOYCOTT was because of the unnecessary delay, not because of the multiplatform release.
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PostSubject: Re: Wii U & the persnickety developers.   Wii U & the persnickety developers. EmptyWed 5 Jun 2013 - 7:32

I got over that pretty quickly, it's clear that some folk still haven't though. Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Wii U & the persnickety developers.   Wii U & the persnickety developers. EmptyWed 5 Jun 2013 - 8:38

It's not that I'm boycotting Rayman. It's just I'm not really a 2D platformer guy. I always end up buying the Mario games, but it just isn't my thing, and while I would have bought it during the drought, there will be many other games to play by then.

I appreciate Ubi's support, I do however blame the Rayman delay for a lot of the Wii U's current problems. Sure, it was only one game, but it was a sparkling jewel in a desert surrounded by a sea of turds and a system seller for many people.

I couldn't care less about it being multiplat - I do think delaying it 7 months is a massive mistake though. Mascot platformers sell best on Nintendo. (There's a reason we're getting 3 exclusive Sonic games.) By the time the game hits, everyone will be consumed with next console hype, and of course the new consoles aren't backwards compatible. Plus, let's face it, we'll never see a game delayed from Playstationville or Xboxland for 7 months because they want to put it on Wii U.... DAMN YOU!
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fronkhead
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PostSubject: Re: Wii U & the persnickety developers.   Wii U & the persnickety developers. EmptyWed 5 Jun 2013 - 9:51

I'll still be picking up Legends, but as Balladeer mentioned it's the delay that took the biscuit. It seemed known from the beginning that the game would land on other platforms eventually (remember the leaked trailer from April 2012?), though right now I have been concerned more with how the delay has forced the development team to make alterations to level designs of the Wii U version.
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PostSubject: Re: Wii U & the persnickety developers.   Wii U & the persnickety developers. EmptyMon 8 Jul 2013 - 19:51

Ubisoft make with the fighting talk. Grr...
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PostSubject: Re: Wii U & the persnickety developers.   Wii U & the persnickety developers. EmptyTue 9 Jul 2013 - 7:24

If it was unprofitable, you can see their point. Nintendo are in a pretty dire situation with the Wii U, as far as I'm concerned. Time will tell if they can dig themselves out of it.
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PostSubject: Re: Wii U & the persnickety developers.   Wii U & the persnickety developers. Empty

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