A Song of Ice and Fire Discussion Thread (HBO Show and Novels)

I'm glad they didn't actually break the wheel. There's a pseudo Ancient Greek oligarchy in place of hereditary succession now, but that's really not going to have much of an impact in terms of negating secession crises (might even make them worse). And I think the moment Westeros doesn't have a google search engine running the show - even though, as per the first counsel session, it seems like he's only really interested in the Dragon and couldn't give a monkies about the realm because he trusts his advisers - but yes, once the search engine dies, once justice is in the hands of men that lack a green God's prompting and subtle manipulations, I can't see anything being that different to the way they were before. Especially given that the rest of the realm is still governed by hereditary secession and there is a huge power vacuum in many of the kingdoms.

But I liked that. Because a first stab at revoking feudalism shouldn't be a home run and I think the characters, after all they've been through, just wanted some sense of hope and closure.

I do think the Danny storyline felt a bit rushed just by virtue of her having relatively few lines this season, although that is a funny thing to say given that this has been built to for almost 10 years. But I think the speech Tyrion gives to John from his prison cell really sums up what's happened perfectly - and what a fucking scene that was, the acting, lighting, and tension - especially in the wake of Tyrion's big stroll around King's Landing - this is one of those pivotal dark room scenes Thrones continues to nail. That he recognised his shortcomings was great too. People talk about Tyrion being less smart once he goes off to Essos. And he is, but he is in the books too. The moment he can't just offer people money is the moment he's on this nihilistic trajectory. I think the way he recognised that he's not the man he thought he was, was done really well.

But anyway, to Danny, every victory was further proof of the manifest destiny that's driven her throughout, checked occasionally by her advisers. To have thought otherwise was naive.

Anyone who thinks she's gone "mad queen" hasn't been paying attention. Danny has never been a steward. If she ever gave a toss about the small folk, she wouldn't just violently upheave the ruling order of every city she visits, sit there for a while before fucking off. If she was ever better than a conqueror, she would never have left the East once she started colouring in the map with her colours. But that's what she does, time and again she perpetuates a cycle of violent conquest, followed by rushed reconstruction, followed by her leaving and never looking back. So it's no surprise when she betrays her word to the Unsullied and asks them to conquer the world for her.

She isn't mad. She's not blowing up an entire city because she has a mental disorder, she's doing it because she has tyrannical tendencies, fuelled by a devotion to her own prophecies and sense of purpose... and a nuclear dragon - none of this is new, and none of this is actually breaking the wheel, it's just putting Danny on the throne.

Yes, she slaughters the Westerosi common folk. And it makes total sense. She doesn't have a firm grasp of the distinctions between serf and slave. Her concept of Serfs, as she explains to Tyrion, is that Westerosi are free, and yet not a single person in the city (as far as she can see) offers surrender until she's defeated the Lannister forces. If the literal slaves of Essos stood in revolution with her, but people with "freedom" don't, then they're not innocent, they're traitors, or the children of traitors propping up a despotic system. So she does what she did to the slavers. She kills her enemies. It doesn't matter that her logic is wrong, it doesn't matter that the Westerosi Serf lives day-to-day hoping for meals, and that the system of Serfdom is all they've ever known and perhaps that, in conjunction with it being more sanitised than the slavery of the east, might be enough for the sefs not to rise in open rebellion... We know what they live like. But we don't get a say, because Danny doesn't know them but she thinks she knows them. And that, in conjunction her betrayal by her advisers, the evils everyone not loyal to her give her, alongside her life experiences is more than enough reason for her, in her mind, to do what she did.

And to someone who has spent her life listening to tales of home, of the people, of the tyrannical King Robert and the Lannisters, both of whom betrayed her family and plotted to erase the Targarians from history, in conjunction with her life experiences as a Kahlisei, a conqueror, a dragon rider, and "liberator," how much more evidence did we really need that she was a heel?

I feel like a lot of people who didn't get Danny did so because they were looking at the character they wanted to see, not the character that was there.

While I thought all that Danny stuff was good, and what a last scene her and John had by the way! I also loved the fact that Arya didn't just assassinate everyone she needed to - because, despite what morons on the internet think, the show hasn't become apologetically feminist and it was never about some girl killing the main characters. (although imagine if Arya didn't kill anyone after spending forever in Bravos, wouldn't the hive mind just be complaining that she didn't do anything )... And while I enjoyed the part where they took the piss out of Sam for bringing up democracy. I didn't massively like the ending.

I thought Sansa got to have her cake and eat it (and that it's dumb that they kept the Night's Watch, and will send it prisoners through a now foreign North???). I don't think it makes sense for all those people with votes to support Bran. I don't think Bron should have been given Highgarden - because which former vassals of the Tyrells would bend the knee to an absolute nobody - but ultimately I really don't think these things are enough spoil what's been a gripping journey.

Your point about Dany is spot on - folk at my work were livid by her heel turn as they envisaged her as the hero and felt it came out of left field because they hadn't read between the lines and noticed that Dany has a massive Messiah complex brought on by her upbringing ("taking the Iron Throne is my RIGHT") and her storyline across the entirety of Thrones in which she's seen as a liberator. The scene with Jon and Tyrion in the jail cell was there to effectively spell it out to those that hadn't realised it yet.

Yeah, the part about the North seceding from the Seven Kingdoms was really dumb. The Iron Islands had pledged allegiance to Dany - with her gone, why should the Greyjoys bother being a part of the Seven Kingdoms? The same applies to Dorne, as well. And wouldn't the Vale follow Sansa as opposed to the realm? I could see the Riverlands, the Lannisters (I forget their region name) and the Reach along with Storm's End staying together, but I'm surprised the realm stayed together. I had envisaged "breaking the wheel" as the collapse of the Seven Kingdoms to individual territories once again - I genuinely thought that was where they were headed after Drogon melted the Iron Throne.

Yeah definitely. The realm staying together wasn't convincing. But, I tell you what. I laughed so hard at Grey Worm doing a big pout in the background while all the important characters divvied up Westeros. It's a shame Grey Worm is such a boring one dimensional character. Might have helped if we'd had some recognition from him that he couldn't maintain Danny's armies, and they couldn't sustain holding King's landing without her.

That's how I read it anyway, but that begs the question as to why, once they've left, anyone cared about his thoughts on Jon. I suppose Jon truly believed he sullied his honour so he accepts the Wall as a punishment, but I was hoping he'd at least think about jumping aboard Captain Arya's boat. Either way the fallout wasn't particularly well done

Let's not forget, we have Victarion Greyjoy, Arianne Martell, Asha Greyjoy, Areo Hotah, and Arys Oakheart added to Feast, and Jon Connington (And the Young Griff stuff), along with Quentyn Martell and various new support characters like Barristan Selmy

Call me crazy but I somehow find it unbelievable that the same character who intervened in multiple cases of persecution of civilians (if she didn't care about random people Drogo and her child would be alive) would decide to raze civilian areas of a city to the ground in response to said city surrendering.

That is not something a sane person would choose to do. Or rather that is not something that a sane Dany would choose to do based on her history.

To clarify I'm not saying she's a perfect hero (Ned Stark was as close as the story ever got to having one and the story made sure to show how failable he was), nor that she necessarily does actively care about the small folk on a constant basis (I mean really does any person truly give a crap about the general population beyond the people they personally know or are exposed to?), but there's a massive difference between her not seeing the big picture about her actions in regards to the small folk and her actively deciding after her enemies have surrendered to raze massive portions of the civilian population.

Yes, she absolutely went "Mad Queen". Because that is literally the only way her actions actually make sense with what the series had repeatedly established about her. And even then the show is guilty of taking the "insanity nob" and ramping it straight from 2 to 11. And for no other reason than the showrunners decided to end it prematurely because "gotta get started on Star Wars!" (Because that franchise isn't already on the nose enough because of awful script writing...) Even when GRRM himself said the story could go to ten full seasons and HBO were more than happy to give them at least another full season and a half.

I suppose those that were loyal to Daenarys - like the Greyjoys and the Martells - would want to see Jon punished, so to keep the peace that's why his punishment was still upheld. Jon being honourable to a fault is another reason too, like you said.