Paper Mario: The Origami King

Sure but when the games haven't been as good as the first then maybe it's time to try what worked in the first place and build on that like most sequels etc do

But I would reiterate my point that Smash Bros is essentially the same game every time, albeit refined and expanded - the Paper Mario games push the boat out and try new things and while not everything lands, I admire how you're going to get a different experience each time. I've still enjoyed every entry I've played and prefer it to the Mario & Luigi series.

The_Jaster wrote:

Rum wrote:

Experimentation is good! Just different.

This.

Sometimes.

Don't get me wrong: experimentation is broadly good, and games will never advance if people don't experiment. However, it can definitely go too far. Take Nintendo's 'We'll never have another F-Zero if we can't think of something to do with it' rubbish. Refinement of an idea is also important; taking a good idea and seeing where it can go is also important. Unrefined uncut diamonds are lumps of slightly fancy rock.

What's more, there are different ways in which experimentation can happen. Experimentation with different narrative ideas and conceits is a different and equally valid. I actually think the fact that we haven't had another TTYD-like Mario RPG is weirder than the lack of another F-Zero, because you could easily argue that F-Zero GX perfected the art and all that comes afterwards is more tracks; whereas give Mario another story to go on using the same mechanics and you have a fundamentally different game.

Nah, I think 'Experimentation is good' is a bit too black and white a take, and this is an example where...

masofdas wrote:

...when the games haven't been as good as the first then maybe it's time to try what worked in the first place and build on that like most sequels etc do

I think what I'm trying to say comes more from a place of being able to appreciate what developers are doing. I find it really frustrating when gamers throw hissy fits because a game didn't match their own preconceived notion of what it should have been, and that is typically "I want it to be everything this game was, but with 100 new things in it too". So for example, Smash Bros Ultimate took that and ran with it, producing a game that, by their own admission, they will probably never pull off again; whereas Pokemon Sword & Shield got torn to shreds by some gamers for not including every element of the franchise's 20+ year history. Remember when Matthew Castle got death threats for giving Brawl 93% (and that was before it was the norm on the internet)? Or the fact that 'review bombing' is now a thing because there is a faction of gamers who are petulant children.

Series like the Paper Mario series will always have people (myself included) clamouring for a more TTYD-esque game. But, I just appreciate that each entry in the series feels significantly different, and I just like that we never quite know what the game is going to be. I'm not saying that anyone here is a petulant gamer child! Just that the Paper Mario series is always reliably innovative, even if it is sometimes to a fault.

I confused myself right up by writing a big piece trying to justify my whining about Colour Splash when it became a thing. Then I realised, and this is from the perspective of somebody who's never played it so could be completely wrong: was it another innovation? It felt like Sticker Star Plus. It felt like it should have learned from the lessons of Sticker Star but instead doubled down. Like I said, could be completely wrong. Anyway, Super Paper Mario was an innovation in the series that I liked, albeit not as much as TTYD. It can be done! (Also I liked Dexit.)

Also: I think some negativity about a game's direction is allowable, in moderation, without hammering it home repeatedly for years, and without death threats or review-bombing or online petitions or any of that nonsense (which should always be frowned upon/result in legal action depending). Sometimes you just want what a game series is good at, you know? Sometimes some of the fans (not the ones doing the above things) actually have a clue what they're on about.

As I say, Sticker Star is the one I haven't played so I can't really say how Colour Splash was or wasn't similar. I don't remember it super clearly because it's been a few years now, but it had a strong emphasis on bringing colour back to the world with a big hammer. It had vibes of de Blob and I enjoyed turning the levels from bland to jazzy. But ultimately I would say it was one of the less memorable entries. TTYD was an overall banger to play, and I loved SPM's plot and soundtrack. The original was fine. Good N64 game that TTYD arguably just improved on in every way.

I don't mean to say that developers shouldn't listen to what the fans want, either; and I don't think people should take what they're given and like it. It sounds like Sticker Star was a bit jobbies, which is why I never bought it, and I'm sad about that because it's a series I love. Sometimes I just think rabid fans think developers are obliged to give them a certain product and the Paper Mario team never seem fazed, and just make whatever the fuck they want to. And I aspire to be that unflappable!

The_Jaster wrote:

Rum wrote:

Experimentation is good! Just different.

This.

I'd much rather they do that than pump out what the fans think they want because the majority of the time we are wrong.

That's the point of view I subscribe to. Because otherwise, you'd just end up with a load of Mario Party 8s and Yoshi's New Islands, and that would be baws.

On another note, am I the only person here that's played and has got all the Paper Mario games? That's a bit off, I wouldn't even say I'm that big of a fan.

The reason I've mostly kept out of this conversation is that I've barely dabbled in Mario's RPG outings! I finished one Paper and one + Luigi.

The Cappuccino Kid wrote:

On another note, am I the only person here that's played and has got all the Paper Mario games? That's a bit off, I wouldn't even say I'm that big of a fan.

Genuinely made me giggle, that. Would have been funnier if they'd all been proper RPGs - but then I imagine you wouldn't have them all.

I think me being a big fan of the early ones was why I didn't buy Colour Splash, actually. Otherwise the reasonably positive critical opinion and lack of anything else to play at that time might have swayed me.

What I started playing of Colour Splash wasn't bad but it was no TTYD and that's the benchmark in series.

I mean you could also try and appreciate what the game was rather than just be bitter that it's not as good as a previous game, right...?!

Don't know if that's aimed at Balla who didn't play Colour Splash or me which I did say what I played wasn't bad no TTYD. I could say that about that about Halo 4 wasn't bad no Reach, Skyward Sword is good but Wind Waker is still better and so on

Just saying TTYD is the best in the series

It was at you, it was just a joke about the general trope of people focusing on what a game isn't rather than appreciating what it is! It wasn't meant to be a serious dig, I just find the negativity a bit tiring sometimes.

Rum Rapture wrote:

I mean you could also try and appreciate what the game was rather than just be bitter that it's not as good as a previous game, right...?!

I feel like this is why people sleep on Super Paper Mario (generally - I'm aware many on here enjoy it). Because it wasn't more of the same, but then I'm sure there are people who bemoan the fact Galaxy 2 IS more of the same. Either way, Mario is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. Plus I'm sure Nintendo will release The Thousand Year Door Remastered at some point.

I preferred Galaxy 2.  I know what I like and I like what I know. Basically I’m everything that holds the development of games back.

Anyway, this looks comfortingly familiar in certain ways at this stage. Gamexplain even did a video showing a companion being present in battle in the Chinese version of the trailer!

Yeah I seen a little snippet of the battle system too and it looked neat where you had to line up some goombas for a combo move. I can see that sort of thing getting a little more complex as you play through with them throwing in stuff like koopas and then the odd spiny.

I think every game after Super Mario Bros on the NES was a mistake.

New trailer, explaining the battle system a bit more as well as the plot and partners:



It looks good! Can't quite work out what the battle system will be like in practise - it looks fundamentally quite similar to old-school combat but with a new spin (ha) - but I'm hopeful.

Do you know, I'm actually less keen on it after that trailer. The battling system's improved, but we still haven't seen any stats. so we don't know if there's any point this time. Meanwhile the characters look really banal, and the boss fights only emphasise that. A sellotape dispenser would be hilarious amongst a bunch of well-designed new enemies, but that's not what I'm seeing. Instead we have things that, unless they manage something very special, aren't going to convey any feelings at all.

Once again, TTYD existing might be problematic for me regarding this, since I basically have always wanted TTYD2 (or Paper Mario 3 I guess, since TTYD was pretty much a straight sequel). I think it comes down to whether there's experience points and stats. to be had, whether I cancel my pre-order or not.

Glass half full as ever!

It looks quite neat! It's almost like a puzzle RPG, I suppose. I'm interested to see how the battling works out in practice, but I'm certainly intrigued.

I think 'RPG' is stretching it a bit these days. People have pointed out that you don't seem to get experience points from battling, only coins - again. It's this that might be the final straw and cause me to cancel my preorder.

I've cancelled mine, as lot's of games coming and next gen this year that I'm only going to get mainly big games or a few indies etc

I think it looks fun and funny and I will enjoy it so I will buy it next month.